millershollow ([info]millershollow) wrote,

Master Rule Set

Ok I compiled what I believe to be most of the rules. Ask questions if you have any and point out flaws where they occur please.

Although many of the changes have been made to this copy, it is now obsolete and as of 9/22 will no longer be kept up to date. Check at http://www.livejournal.com/users/millershollow/90566.html for the most recent version.


What's This?

Ok the entire game is about surviving. Everyone lives in a small village known as Millers Hollow. Sadly for our villagers, several werewolves have moved into the village and are hell bent on eating everyone in it. There are several werewolves (depending on the number of players anywhere from 1 to 4; the exact number to be revealed at the beginning of the game). No one knows who the werewolves are except the werewolves themselves. Every night the werewolves get together and kill off someone. They only kill off one person. During the next day the town (including the werewolves who are in disguise) get together and lynch someone (decided by a vote). Then at night the werewolves kill someone again. This continues until there are either only werewolves (the werewolves win) or only townsfolk (the townsfolk win).

Role Assignment

Before the game starts the moderator using a random draw assigns roles. It is completely random and I typically use the Werewolves of Millers Hollow card game. All roles are announced no later than the night before the game. At that point any roles that require a special action are allowed to occur before the begining of the first day (for example if the Seer has a free look, this happens now). If playing the version of the games were the game begins with a werewolf kill, this will occur now as well (see Werewolf section).

At 11:00 AM on the first day (all times are in West Coast time), the village wakes up, discovers that there are werewolves present in the town, and is ordered to find them and lynch them.

Day Time Lynching

During the day, almost anything goes. You can say pretty much whatever you want. The purpose of the day is to vote for someone to be lynched (or vote them off the island if you like that terminology). To vote for someone you simply state in any post (not in the header) "vote [insert name]". You may change your vote at any time by stating "unvote [insert original name] vote [insert new name]". You may also abstain by stating "vote abstain". Please bold all votes. There is usually a little less than 24 hours to get your vote or changed vote in. Last minute changes in attempts to get a vote in when no one is watching are frowned upon and let's face it, cheesy and not in the spirit of the game. All dialogue (except when the werewolves meet to eat someone or in the case of games with werewolf telepathy) occurs during the day in the Day Time Post.

A few additional comments about what is allowed and not allowed: you can claim anything you want, to be other roles you aren't, that you'll commit to wacky things in real life, tell bold face lies, etc. Anything you commit to during the game will not be held up outside of the game. Therefore if you promise to take everyone in the game out to dinner if you are indeed a wolf, you do not have to stand by your promise. Or if you promise to wear clothing of the opposite sex if you a wolf, again you do not have to stand by your promise. Promises of outside things not involved in the game hold NO weight in the game and should be treated by the players as such. By the way making such promises has been referred to as the "Preciousjade Defense". One thing that is not allowed is reposting of flavor text, mentioning what was described in icons, etc. Occasionally depending on what is going on in the game, some players may receive flavor text that others do not see. You may not repost this flavor text in the game. Also whatever icons are used on posts regardless of in flavor text or role announcements should not be redisplayed, talked about, etc. Prove yourself innocent or guilty on your own merits and flaws, don't use flavor text and graphics meant to enhance the game. Do not post pretend flavor text either. Flavor text is meant as an enhancement to the game, not as evidence.

Lynching continues until 11 am the next day. At which point the player with the most votes will be executed according to mob rule. The day will then end, and the game will enter the night phase. In the case of a tie vote, there will be a two hour run off vote between those with the most votes (regardless of how many people are involved in the tie). Votes for those involved in the tie will remain and must be unvoted before voting for one of the other players involved in the tie. Votes for playes not involved in the tie will be discarded and those votes must be recast for one of the players involved in the tie. If at the end of two hours (typically 1 pm) there is still a tie, no one is lynched. Course the werewolves desire blood and will in retribution eat two townsfolk that night. So it's in the villagers best interest to not end in a tie.

Villagers lynched are killed in a brutal fashion. Flavor text accompaning the death of the player in no way reflects on the game. It is simply flavor text. The person usually resposible for the death of the lynched villager is the person who first voted for the victim. This could end up being the third person who voted for him, if the first two change their votes (even if the first two later on revote for the original person). Again it's all just flavor text and has no impact on the game. Upon being lynched, you are out of the game. You role is revealed upon your death.

Night Time Events

Once day is over, night starts. During night, the werewolf post will open. The werewolves are allowed to talk about who they wish to eat. When at least 51% of the werewolves are in agreement (preferably 100%) on who to eat, the werewolf post will be closed. Again flavor text announcing the next day and who was eaten by the werewolves will occur once all the night time activities are finished. If you are eaten, then you are out of the game. Your role is revealed upon your death.

The werewolves can attempt to eat anyone they want, even themselves. Of course in a non blind game there's little reason to do so, since if they successfully get eaten, then it is revealed that they are a werewolf. There are some characters that can save someone from being eaten, and the occasional character that can't be eaten.

Every night (and usually once free before the game starts) the Seer gets to act. The Seer is a special villager who once per night gets to secretly look at another player. The Seer will be told if the player is a werewolf or not a werewolf. That's all. They won't be told if they have another special role. Simply werewolf or not a werewolf. The Seer is included in all games.

Other Ways of Dying

If special characters or rules are added there are other ways of dying besides werewolf devourment or village lyching. As usual when you die, your role is revealed.

End Game

The game continues like this, alternating day and night events until either 1) there are no more werewolves or 2) the number of werewolves is equal to or greater than the number of non werewolves.

Logistics

There is a watcher list. If you die, you will be placed on it. The Watchers can see every post made. As a watcher or one of the dead, you are requested to not talk with any players about the game, period. Often watchers will accidentally reveal information to a player that will reduce their enjoyment. So watchers, if you want to talk about the game, only talk to another watcher.

Players are not allowed to talk about the game outside of the daytime posts (with the exception of the werewolf kill posts when the werewolves are allowed to only talk about who they wish to eat). If you are players do not email each other about the game. Do not discuss the game outside the day time posts. All game discussion must occur within the game.

Day time posts will no longer allow commenting once the day is over. Werewolf kill posts will also no longer allow commenting once the victim is decided upon.

There is another interface to read the daytime lynch vote threads thanks to [info]gorillashaman: http://cuddlepuddle.org/~adam/lj_games/

Also the [info]millershollow user info page has a list of the current players including which ones are dead or alive.

Finally if you miss two lynch votes in a row, you will be removed from the game.

Sheriff

Occasionally a townsfolk will ask for a sheriff to be elected. A special sheriff election will occur if the moderator demands one or if the players decide on it. Two separate players on the same day must request to have a sheriff election. If early enough in the day, a special poll will be placed up where all living players can vote yes or no on if they want to have a sheriff. Majority wins. If a tie occurs, then no sheriff will be elected. If the town decides they wish to elect a sheriff, then the next day, the sheriff vote will occur. The sheriff vote occurs just like the lynch vote. The player with the most votes wins the position. In the case of a tie, the vote is extended two hours. In the case of a tie, the lynch vote remains open for the next two hours! If at the time of the sheriff election, the lynch vote ends in a tie, the sheriff vote is also kept open two extra hours. The benefits of being the sheriff are immediately applied to the lynch vote at the end of the day of voting.

The sheriff's vote counts as two. He may not split his vote. The sheriff may publically or privately declare a successor. He may change this successor at anytime while alive. If he does not choose a successor, the moderator may decide to have another vote after he dies for a new sheriff. The badge is passed on to his successor at the time of his death. Anyone may be elected or given the sheriff badge regardless of if they are villager, werewolf, seer, or something else.

Terminology

Non werewolves, non seers, are called VILLAGERs. Seers are considered to be VILLAGERs as well, just special VILLAGERs.

Mafia

Occasionally Mafia will move into the town. Mafia of Millers Hollow is where the Mafia replace the Werewolves and Citizens replace the Villagers and a Detective replaces the Seer. That's the only difference.

There is special variant of the game called Werewolves vs Mafia where there are Mafia members, Werewolves, a Seer, a Detective and all act at once. Werewolves can kill Mafia. Mafia can kill Werewolves. Seers can only spy on werewolves and detectives can only spy on mafia. The game is over when there are only villagers left or there are only mafia left or there are only werewolves left. Werewolves as usual kill one person per night. Mafia as usual kill one person per night.

Ravers of Black Rock City

Occasionally the villagers of Millers Hollow will move out into the desert and throw a big party. Here Narcs replace the werewolves and Ravers replace the Villagers. A Glowstick Ninja is the Seer.

Special Characters

WITCH

The WITCH acts at night. His abilities do not operate during the day. The witch has a healing potion and a poison potion. While having not used the healing potion, every night the WITCH sees who the werewolves kill (not what they are, but who they are). The WITCH once per game can save that person (they can save themselves). After they save a person, they no longer know who the werewolves kill each night until it's announced. If the WITCH decides to not save someone that night (or any night after they use the healing potion), then they can once per game poison someone during the night, thus gaining a free kill.

Called the DOCTOR in Mafia games. Called the CHEMIST is Raver games.

HUNTER

The HUNTER can take someone with them whenever they are killed (regardless of if by the werewolves or lynched by the villagers or killed by the witch or done in a suicide pact with the lovers). That's it, one free kill in retaliation.

Called the VIGILANTE in Mafia games. Called the DRAMA FAIRY is Raver games.

AFFLICTED

The AFFLICTED begins as a villager and believes they are a villager and if checked by the SEER checks as a villager. If lynched they are still a villager and die. If they are targeted by the werewolves, however, their lycanthropic ridden blood activates and they obtain WEREWOLF as their identifier now and are not dead. After they become a WEREWOLF if checked by the SEER they will check as WEREWOLF. When they die they will be announced as either VILLAGER (if before changing) or WEREWOLF (if after changing). If there is a WITCH in the game and the WITCH has not used her healing potion yet, the WITCH does NOT find out who the werewolves victim was. In this case there is no victim because the victim does not die. The WITCH cannot be used as an AFFLICTED finder.

When the AFFLICTED is targeted, the wolves will not be told that the victim was the afflicted. The afflicted will not be told who the wolves are. They will not find out until the next night. It is assumed that the wolves tear apart their victim and leave him for dead. Then his werewolf blood will kick in, he will heal and manifest as a wolf. But he won't know who the rest of the wolves are until that night when he joins them to hunt. Likewise, the wolves may think that the WITCH simply used her healing potion. Also if the SEER spies on the Afflicted the night the Afflicted is turned, they receive a Positive (is a werewolf) result.

The BODYGUARD or MARTYR can stop an AFFLICTED from being targeted by the wolves and thus not turning.

Called the STOOGIE in Mafia games. Called the SNITCH in Raver games.

CUPID

CUPID at the beginning of the game without any knowledge of who is what picks two people (one can be himself) as the LOVERS. The LOVERS can never vote for each other in the lynching votes. And if one dies, the other commits suicide as they mourn their lover's death. There is a special case when the lovers are a werewolf and a villager. They now have a new goal of killing everyone in the game. CUPID has no other powers but does know who the lovers are. The LOVERS know who each other are, but do not know what each other are. CUPID also knowns who the lovers are, but the lovers do not know who he is.

Clarification: To reiterate when one lover dies, the other commits suicide, PERIOD, that's it. It doesn't matter what roles they play, if they be two werewolves, two villagers, the hunter and cupid, the seer and a werewolf, etc. When one dies, the other dies by committing suicide. It also doesn't matter how they die. If they are lynched, poisoned, shot, eaten, etc, the other lover commits suicide. Obviously if one is the Hunter, when he commits suicide he takes someone with him. If one lover is a wolf and the other a villager, they have a new end goal, to kill everyone else off in town; that still doesn't mean they don't die like normal.

Lovers will never have "Lover Telepathy" in Millers Hollow. In [info]lupusintabula, [info]raversofbrc, and other games that is up to the moderator.

CUPID is known as the DOSE FAIRY in Raver games. The Lovers are known as E-TARDS in Raver games.

MASONS

There are two MASONS in the game. They are villagers and the only thing special about them is that they know that each other are absolutely, positively MASONS and thus villagers and not werewolves. It is up to the players or the moderator to decide if there is Mason Telepathy - ie they have a special post all to themselves where they can confer. This, however, is not the usual case.

MASONS are HIGH SCHOOL CHUMS in Raver games.

MAGISTRATE

During the night, the MAGISTRATE can decide to sequester someone for the day. They are locked up, cannot vote or debate while in jail, but can not be lynched by the villagers. The MAGISTRATE cannot sequester someone twice in a row.

SORCEROR

The Wizard or Sorceror works on the side of the WEREWOLVES but does not know who they are. He wins if the werewolves do. Every night the Wizard tries to identify the SEER and like the SEER asks about one person per night. If they are the SEER he finds out. If they are anything else, he does not. This has also been called the DEVIL or the WIZARD.

Called the AGENT in Mafia. Called the K9-UNIT in Raver games.

THIEF

Two extra cards are added in and shuffled with the deck. Whoever is dealt the THIEF card gets to select one of these two cards if he chooses (unless both are WEREWOLVES in which case he has to pick one). This means that no one knows for sure (except the THIEF) which parts are actually in the game.

Clarification: How this works - what you do is prepare your deck with all the special roles included, then you add two extra villager cards. All the cards are dealt out with two remaining. The thief before the game begins gets to pick one of the two remaining cards (or not if he wishes) and become that role. If both are werewolves, he has to pick one. If one is a mason, he has to pick that one, and if both is a mason he can't pick either and remains a basic villager. Thus one role will usually not be in the game and you can't be sure of how many werewolves are in the game. RALPH NADER and the AFFLICTED appear as Villagers to him. So even he won't know if they aren't in the game.

BODYGUARD

The BODYGUARD chooses someone every night to protect. If that person is targeted by the WEREWOLVES, the BODYGUARD thwarts the attempt. The BODYGUARD cannot protect himself and he can not protect the same person two nights in a row. He can protect person 1 on night 1, person 2 on night 2, and then person 1 again on night 3.

MARTYR

The Martyr works like the BODYGUARD, but becomes the Werewolves victim instead of thwarting the attempt. The martyr can protect the same person every night though. Obviously protecting himself has the same result as if he didn't.

The BODYGUARD can protect the MARTYR like any other player, but this protection only applies to if the WEREWOLVES target the MARTYR, not if the MARTYR takes his own life. Thus if the Werewolves target the player that the MARTYR is protecting, the MARTYR will die and cannot be saved by the BODYGUARD. The BODYGUARD and MARTYR can only protect the intended victim, not the person who eventually bites it. Contrary to that, the WITCH can save the MARTYR if killed by the WEREWOLVES regardless of if the MARTYR was the intended victim or not. The WITCH saves the eventual victim not the intended victim.

RALPH NADER

Ralph Nader believes himself to be a VILLAGER. Is told that he is a VILLAGER and for all respects is a VILLAGER. Except when the SEER looks at him. Ralph Nader gives a false reading to the SEER and appears as a WEREWOLF to the SEER although he is in fact a VILLAGER.

This is often called the COBBLER. It is called the FRAT BOY in Raver games.

PRIEST

The priest is only used in blind games. Every night the priest gets to ask about one of the dead players. The players true role will be revealed. (also called the MEDIUM occasionally).

NOTARY

The notary collects the last statements of all the dead. He may use or reveal this info as he sees fit. When he dies, however, all info is revealed to the players. This role is only used in blind games.

WEREHAMSTER

The WEREHAMSTER kills one player every night. The WEREHAMSTER works alone. The WEREHAMSTER can not be killed by the werewolves, but can eat werewolves. The WEREHAMSTER wins when he is the last player left. The WEREHAMSTER dies if SEERed by the SEER.

The WEREHAMSTER can be played with the rule that it kills one person every night or not decided by a vote of the players. The WEREHAMSTER can be killed by the HUNTER's Gun, the WITCH's Poison, and the Lover's Suicide Pact. The BODYGUARD and MARTYR can defend someone from the WEREHAMSTER's attack if it gets one. The WITCH can not use her healing potion on the victim as the WITCH is watching the WEREWOLVES attack and not the WEREHAMSTER. The SEER looking at the WEREHAMSTER automatically kills it. Original rules of the WEREHAMSTER do not give it a kill (which is why the players will vote for it). If the WEREHAMSTER does not get a kill every night, then the WEREHAMSTER counts as a VILLAGER for sake of end game. If he is still alive when the game is over, he wins and no one else does. Thus the wolves must get him lynched before getting the town down to an equal number and the villagers must lynch the WEREHAMSTER before they lynch the last wolf. In games where the WEREHAMSTER kills every night, this end scenario does not apply.

Some of the werehamster's abilities are different in other games. This does not apply in [info]lupusintabula. Check with that journal for other WEREHAMSTER changes which currently include (but don't quote me on): the WEREHAMSTER can not be killed by the Hunter's gun or the Witch's poison but his victim can be saved by the MARTYR.

SERIAL KILLER

The serial killer acts like the WEREHAMSTER in that he kills every night, but he can be eaten by the Werewolves and is not killed or revealed if looked at by the SEER. He still dies when poisoned, shot by the hunter, lover suicide, etc. He appears as not a werewolf when spyed on by the SEER.

POSSESSED

The POSSESSED is a human, on the side of the WEREWOLVES, but doesn't know who they are. Working to kill the villagers and keep the werewolves alive. He is sort of like the SORCEROR without the cool figure out who the SEER is.

MYTHOMANIAC

On the first night after a lynching, the MYTHOMANIAC points at someone still alive. If he points at someone who is not a WEREWOLF or not the SEER, then he remains a simple villager. If he points at a WEREWOLF or a SEER then he takes on their role with them and joins them in their activities. He is not independent of them though and will meet with the original SEER and they together will spy on one person per night.

EL DIABLO

or TEMPTER -

Conflicts

At night all conflicts are resolved at the same time. Kills happen simulataneously at the disgression of the moderator. This means that if the WEREWOLVES eat the same player the WITCH poisons, both kill the player. If the WEREWOLVES eat the WITCH, he can still poison someone that night as he dies. If the HUNTER dies during the night, he can take anyone with him (and they can finish using their special abilities before they die).

Special Variants

Blind - Roles of the dead are not revealed.

Werewolf Telepathy - Werewolves can talk secretly whenever they want.

Two Independent Seers - this version has two seers working independently of each other. Each get to check every night.

FAQ

1) In the unlikely event that the werewolves and the werehamster target the same person AND that person is being protected by the bodyguard, are they protected from both attacks?

Yes

2) In the unlikely event that the werewolves and the werehamster target the same person AND that person is being protected by the martyr, do both the target and the martyr die? (Martyr sacrifices self against first kill, then second killer finishes the job.)

No, the MARTYR only dies.

3) In the event of a save, are the wolves provided with information as to what role did the saving?

Depends on the role. Martyr obviously since he's dead and his role is revealed except in blind games. Bodyguard yes. Witch no (although this is at the discretion of the moderator as if there's no Afflicted or werehamster, it would not matter if you told the wolves that the witch saved someone).

4) So if the wolves target the martyr normally does the target show up as the character name or the martyr?

The target always shows up to the witch as the player name not the character role.

5) Does the Diplomacy "beleaguered garrison" rule apply, where if a territory is attacked by 2 or more other forces of equal strength, the resulting stalemate leaves the target unharmed?

No, in this case the target is just dead many many times over.


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  • 54 comments

[info]dragonluk

August 16 2005, 23:32:02 UTC 6 years ago

Are you still interested about getting cards made?

[info]millershollow

August 16 2005, 23:35:46 UTC 6 years ago

yes, but it doesn't seem like many artists are interested and I didn't want to put the burden of drawing all the cards on one or two artists . . . I was hoping several artists would want to contribute a piece or two each so we'd get several different cards done by several different artists for a collaboration

[info]random_girl

August 16 2005, 23:52:43 UTC 6 years ago

Wow. There's a defense named after me :)

[info]millershollow

August 16 2005, 23:56:35 UTC 6 years ago

yep there's been times when players have gone "I invoke the preciousjade defense" . . . you've been immortalized :)

[info]ragnarok_now

August 17 2005, 00:01:22 UTC 6 years ago

"You may not repost this flavor text in the game."

Perhaps add: "Do not post pretend flavor text either."

[info]millershollow

August 17 2005, 00:04:56 UTC 6 years ago

ok got it . . .

[info]the1mouse

August 17 2005, 00:01:48 UTC 6 years ago

Hi (raises hand)... "Afflicted" has two F's in it.

:)

[info]the1mouse

August 17 2005, 00:05:18 UTC 6 years ago

PS: What value would the THIEF have in the online version of the game?

[info]the1mouse

6 years ago

[info]millershollow

August 17 2005, 00:05:51 UTC 6 years ago

*QUACK!*

The duck advances menancingly.

[info]evilben

6 years ago

[info]the1mouse

6 years ago

[info]dragonluk

6 years ago

[info]ilovetequila

August 17 2005, 00:58:42 UTC 6 years ago

Nitpick

"... the number of werewolves equals the number of non werewolves."
should probably read something like:
"... the number of werewolves is equal to or greater than the number of non werewolves."

[info]millershollow

August 17 2005, 01:12:40 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Nitpick

ok, changed . . . anything else?

[info]evilben

August 17 2005, 01:09:51 UTC 6 years ago

You also mentioned the Little Girl during PolyCon.

[info]millershollow

August 17 2005, 01:11:50 UTC 6 years ago

I hate the little girl and she's practically impossible to do online

[info]evilben

August 17 2005, 01:14:58 UTC 6 years ago

Ah. Got it

[info]the1mouse

6 years ago

[info]evilben

6 years ago

[info]ilovetequila

August 17 2005, 06:14:19 UTC 6 years ago

Well I guess it's good to know you don't like to do little girls online. ;-)

What is the little girl?

[info]chessiekitty

August 17 2005, 01:52:22 UTC 6 years ago

If the lovers do not know what each other are, if they are a villager and a wolf, how do they know to try to kill off the rest of the characters? Obviously the wolf would know the villager was a villager. But what about the villager?

[info]daedalus4096

August 17 2005, 05:38:19 UTC 6 years ago

Well, the wolf would probably tell the villager, or at least that's the idea. After all, it's not like the villager is gonna try to lynch the wolf, or otherwise rat on him/her.

[info]ilovetequila

August 17 2005, 06:13:11 UTC 6 years ago

But without private conversations, how would they do that?

[info]gorillashaman

August 17 2005, 06:13:32 UTC 6 years ago

You need a GAZEBO

Maybe there's a one in 6 chance that a werewolf will die if they try to eat the GAZEBO.

=) =) =)

[info]gorillashaman

August 17 2005, 06:25:22 UTC 6 years ago

I have updated the scripts at http://cuddlepuddle.org/~adam/mh

Basically there was a problem in that the old scripts required human intervention during the game, to keep track of players and dead people and whatnot.

Since I'll be out of town for the next game, I decided to update all the scripts so that they no longer require human intervention.

Take a look at what's there now, and let me know if any changes need to be made.

[info]millershollow

August 17 2005, 16:50:57 UTC 6 years ago

ok, looks good . . . it pretty much just goes out and collects new posts whenever they are made? right?

[info]gorillashaman

August 17 2005, 18:13:56 UTC 6 years ago

It's supposed to check every 15 minutes, but yeah, that's the idea.

When I analyze the posts, I use the set of all poster names as the set of player names, then I go back and analyze all the posts again looking for votes against players. For this reason, it doesn't count votes against people who haven't posted a comment yet. It was the only way I could get away from using a fixed table of players. However, as long as every player posts at least one comment, it works fine.

If there's a better way to get player names, let me know.

It also does some automated tricks to figure out spelling errors in votes, rather than relying on a fixed table of spelling transformations.

[info]ragnarok_now

August 18 2005, 17:50:43 UTC 6 years ago

How to do the Notary:
Open a notary post at the begining of the game. All players have access. All posts are screened. Millershollow will be able to see the screened posts, and can remove any that break the rules (shouldn't be necessary). Note that screening posts mean that individuals can read (and delete) their own posts, but not the posts of others.
Remove any old posts by the same person (one post per person).
If the notary is alive, screen the notary post so watchers and the notary can see the entries. I'm not sure if this can be done. If not then have a specific time period where all users are allowed to post, and then afterwards only the notary and watchers can see the post (with unscreened entries).
If the notary dies, make the post public.

[info]princeofwands

September 10 2005, 22:57:01 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Cupid and the Lovers - if the lovers end up as one villager and one wolf, can the wolf encourage the death of their villager lover, or is this (sorta) covered by the lynching vote clause? Thsi isn't clear to me.

I image it as a possible advantage to the mixed breed couple early in the game to hint at one's partner to throw doubt on later discussion around identifying the lovers.

[info]millershollow

September 10 2005, 23:00:52 UTC 6 years ago

lovers can lie, bluff, say whatever they want except they can never actually vote for each other in a lynching . . . so if one wants to encourage other people to lynch his or her lover, that's fine, but they can never cast a vote against them . . .
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